Some relationships are fantastic, some good, and some are downright bad. The bad, toxic relationships can affect not only your emotional health, but your physical health as well. Dr. Natalie Jones specializes in helping people who are involved in narcissistic relationships, and today we’re talking all about them.
What is narcissism?
- Pop-culture defines a narcissist as: someone who has a lack of empathy, puts their feelings above everyone else’s, they feel very entitled, and are very manipulative. Gaslighting. The relationship becomes very parasitic.
- Clinically speaking, narcissitic personality disorder is defined as: a sense of grandiosity (put themselves in a god-like category), sense of entitlement, want to control everything and everyone around them. Their relationships are short term, like a roller coaster. The people they keep around them are ones they can use. They won’t be intimate or vulnerable, they lie, they are obsessed with being brilliant, successful, or beautiful. Will only associate with people who are the best. Can be a delusional component; they believe people are jealous of them. They also can feel an intense amount of jealousy, insecurity, or envy.
Dr. Natalie Jones specialises in counseling women of color with narcissistic mothers. She identifies what narcissism means, how to detect if that’s what we lived (or live) with, and how to break the cycle.
Dr. Jones Bio:
Dr. Natalie Jones, PsyD., LPCC is an Licensed professional clinical counselor and a post doctoral psychologist. She currently has a private practice called Lifetime Counseling and Consulting in Oakland, CA where she specializes in working with women who have been in emotionally and psychologically abusive relationships with narcissists, as well as with individuals who were previously incarcerated for various crimes.
Dr. Jones also works for the California Dept of Corrections and specializes in providing individual/group counseling and assessments to prison inmates who have committed various offenses, with a specialization in working with sex offenders.
Dr. Jones also has a podcast called A Date With Darkness Podcast, which specializes in providing education and tips from healing from narcissistic relationships.
Dr. Jones received her masters in clinical counseling psychology from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology in Chicago, IL, and her doctorate in clinical psychology from the California School of Professional Psychology in San Francisco, CA. Dr. Jones has also written blogs for the Mind Journal and PsychCentral.
A few things we talked about:
- Just like animals who have parasites become sickly, so do we when we have a parasidic narcissist attached to us. There are women who are in abusive relationships lose part of themselves and may become physically sick. Go to 30:17-31:01 to listen to this part
- People who have been raised by a narcissist have a greater liklihood of being in a relationship with a narcissist.
- People who are in a relationship with a narcissist may find comfort in that relationship because there’s comfort in what we know. They might not want to change.
- If the person is a true narcisstic person, you can limit contact or make the coversation superficial. Or limiting talking to once or twice a year at holidays when you can walk away.
- Know that the narcissist will not change unless they want to, which rarely happens. Do not expect them to change.
- They feel like they don’t have the problem. When narcissists go to treatment, it’s usually to prove how you’re the problem and they’re so wonderful. You can’t typically have a superficial relationship with a relationship partner. They need everything focused on them.
- Don’t stay in this relationship for your kids. If the person is treating you like garbage, that’s abuse, and your kids are seeing you be abused. Even if they’re “nice” parents, if they treat you like dirt that isn’t good parenting.
- If someone is abusing you, there’s a chance they’re abusing your kids and you don’t know it.
Narcissism indicators:
- You have to do a lot of work just to have a relationship with the narcissistic person. (Much more than a normal relationship.)
- You have to mentally prepare yourself to go “into a war-zone” when you’re going to deal with them.
- Inability to have a healthy conversation with the person.
- You have to hide part of your life from them because they use information to attack you, use it against you in a moment of weakness, or they’ll try to hold it over you later.
- If you notice those things, ask yourself why. Many people think they have to respect their parents, but don’t know exactly what their definition of what respect is. Often, the word respect is misused.
- Do they respect you, or hold you emotionally hostage? Do they try to control you to be a certain way so they can get what they want, but you don’t get what you want from the relationship.
- We feel like we don’t know them. We know how they act, or their behaviors, but we don’t know the intimacies and intracasies of their life.
“it might even be necessary or life-saving to break that tie.”
Is it healthy to break the tie with a narcisstic person?
- “Yes, it might even be necessary or life-saving to break that tie.”
You’re in a relationship with two people: you’re in a relationship with the actual parent, and they’re also in a relationship with the fantasy or idea of what their parent should be, or what they hope one day they can be.” - It’s important to reconcile reality from fantasy. Chances are they are not going to change.
- The person may become abusive if you try to leave the relationship. Be safe and seek help, talking to a therapist first to determine your course of action may be helpful.
More facts about narcissism according to Dr. Jones:
- 99.9% of the time, people that were raised by abusive parents, and have children of their own, have the abuse manifest in some way with their own children.
- The number one indicator is that typically what happens when moms lash out with their own children, is that they have guilt. “I’m acting like the person I never wanted to be.” Pay attention to guilt. If you notice it coming up, go to a therapist, or to the bookstore and get a book about this.
- If the people who know and care about you notice a problem with your own parenting, listen. Don’t be defensive. They’re telling you because they care about you.
- Biggest telltale sign is your kids. If you’re manifesting behaviors towards, your kids, there will be a reminder of the past. They might feel like they can’t come to you or talk to you. They might even be afraid or intimitated by you.
Books & Videos to help you learn more:
- “Narcisstic Families, Assessment and Treatment”
- “Narcisstic Mothers”
- Dr. Susan Forward, “Toxic Families”
- Anything by H.G. Tudor – books and videos on YouTube
- Kim Saeed has videos on YouTube about narcissism
- Anything by Lundy Vancroft
- Anything by Susan Anderson
Dr. Natalie Jones’ advice to women whose parent is a narcissist:
Find a surrogate parent, or parent-like figure who can fulfill healthier roles for you. The idea of what you thought your parent some day could be.
Dr. Natalie Jones’ advice to a mom in a relationship with a narcissist:
Think about what this means for you and what you want to do about it. Do you want it to stop, or do you want to just have an awareness of what’s happening? Research on the internet and bounce ideas off friends. If you’re questioning some things, write them down, and think about it more. Get a therapist you can talk to regularly who specializes in working with these kinds of situations. Be safe. You might not want your partner to see what you’re reading, or your notes so they can’t access it. Be selective about who you share information with so they don’t share the information with the narcisstic person.
Dr. Natilie Jones’ Superpower: She is a human lie detector. She can tell if someone is lying or conning within seconds.
You can find Dr. Natalie Jones
Contact: https://www.drnataliejones.com
https://www.adatewithdarkness.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.nataliejones/
Instagram2: https://www.instagram.com/adatewithdarknesspodcast/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drnataliejones/
Facebook 2: https://www.facebook.com/adatewithdarkness/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/196036654267594/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Dr_NatalieJones
Twitter 2: https://twitter.com/ADateWDarkness
Thank you for joining us today!
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Thank you Dr. Jones for joining me this week!
Our music is “A New Day,” by Scott Holmes
This episode is sponsored by the book, “The Sick Mom’s Guide to Having Fun Again: If I can do it, you can too!” available on Amazon, and all major online booksellers. https://www.amazon.com/Sick-Moms-Guide-Having-Again/dp/0998961612